Curse

Rampage · Mar 04, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.

I completely agree.

If ANet did something about ursan and SF right away (like they should have), the community wouldn't have known about the power the skills had, they wouldn't have gotten used to clearing shit super fast with no effort, and no one would have really cared. Too bad ANet would rather get a bunch of people pissed as opposed to actually being decent, admitting they made something insanely overpowered, and actually balanced their game.

Gill Halendt · Mar 04, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

No misunderstanding. I know how other games work when compared to GW.

But admitedly, the playerbase has been focusing more on activities that take time (farming, grinding...) and the game itself evolved: most of the "new" content added in the last two years was hi-end gear inaccessible without hardcore farming, most of the relevant balance updates revolved around farming builds...

Having time to farm and grind it's not strictly mandatory, as it is in, say, WoW. But the new focus on "time" served to artificially extended the game lifespan. Go check the common counter argument: "Farming is all I have left to do in the game, take it away and I'll quit", or the endless discussions about grinding for rep-titles. Not mandatory, but so widespread and required by players themselves that giving up with grinding today pretty much means giving up with significant parts of the game. If you're not into farming and grinding, completing the 4 games doesn't take that much, and then the game is pretty much over.

Amy Awien · Mar 04, 2010, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

and that is precisely why there was no problem

Bug John, you conveniently ignored his remark about how it does affect his gameplay:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

... most people just tell me to "get a run" if I try to LFG X Dungeon

Then there is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

Well good luck finding your balanced group, cuz you wont. You have better be a sin or use x/sin using SF or you are not getting into the uw/fow/doa groups.

If that doesn't illustrate how SF affects other people's gameplay, I don't know what will.

Running them has become the standard for missions and dungeons

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ScVRiFm3A

There's something odd with their mindset when developpers of an RPG require customers to limit their RPG characters to one specific character class - and build - if they're to get into groups with other players.

Hearing this, if this is the direction they are taking I don't have much hope for GW2 as RPG. But it's their game, they can take it anyway they want, and I can take my money anywhere I want.

It's the same thing as it was with Ursan all over again.

Pandora's box · Mar 04, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No misunderstanding. I know how other games work when compared to GW.

But admitedly, the playerbase has been focusing more on activities that take time (farming, grinding...) and the game itself evolved: most of the "new" content added in the last two years was hi-end gear inaccessible without hardcore farming, most of the relevant balance updates revolved around farming builds...

Having time to farm and grind it's not strictly mandatory, as it is in, say, WoW. But the new focus on "time" served to artificially extended the game lifespan. Go check the common counter argument: "Farming is all I have left to do in the game, take it away and I'll quit", or the endless discussions about grinding for rep-titles. Not mandatory, but so widespread and required by players themselves that giving up with grinding today pretty much means giving up with significant parts of the game. If you're not into farming and grinding, completing the 4 games doesn't take that much, and then the game is pretty much over.

I agree with you so far that it is inevitable that players go find ways to extend gameplaying when everything is done. Take Dragon Age: Game of the year 2009. Yet hardly anyone plays it longer than 2 months. Because you've seen it all by than. The biggest advantage of a game like GW is that the game environment is HUGE. So many things to explore, so many quests to do. And when they are done there is still a lot to gather: skills you missed, itemupgrades, fashion if you like... This includes farming. No problem! That is: as long as the game focus is threat everyone equally and not give advantage to those who update changed skillsets in 1 day. Like those who now found new ways to use SF, where others who return to the game during the next months look puzzled when the skill no longer works (just an example, like I earlier said, this is not about SF, but about nerfing in general). Which brings me to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Which is why the skills need to be balanced so that you can become strong with a few early skills you have access too and any elite for your profession, as opposed to only one or two truly being viable.

I think they plan something like that in GW2: a limited skillset. That game will be much like Propehcies in the beginning, a smaller world, no heroes, and some new things like that underwater level. And a level cap of course. Yet I wonder how people stay focussed on gameplay in such an environment. Players want to expand their abillities. Once that stops, they quit playing. Sure a balanced skillset is great at the start.
But imo an evergrowing and therefore less balanced skillset is much more interesting. I think much of the reasoning why to change skills is just between the ears. Really, do you thing more people would quit playing if you let skills unchanged than the number of people leaving after every 'balance'?

Shasgaliel · Mar 04, 2010, 12:37 PM // 12:37

The issue is not about farming elitism etc the issue is that people (including myself) treat game too seriously and would like full control over what is happening there. Also changes if you are too emotional about them produce sense of lost and that sense drives people far from the game and makes them frustrated. For me people who left the game already are bigger loss than any possible build change.

Reformed · Mar 04, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If that doesn't illustrate how SF affects other people's gameplay, I don't know what will.

Running them has become the standard for missions and dungeons

This is not targeted at you specifically I'm just pointing out the disconnect here. Tramp neglected to mention that you won't find those so-called balanced groups either way. If they completely removed farming from the game tomorrow the flurry of activity in popular staging outposts would vanish. The people that remain would choose h/h, 2+6 or some other mix with friends, alliance or guild. The hardcore PuG crowd is going to complain no matter what happens because of the quality of people they are left with. It takes initiative to make a good PuG. That means reworking builds from the ground up and finding people receptive to hearing that Defy tanking sucks. Let's be clear, I don't dungeon run I may have done CoF twice ever but that's it. Looking at the available options to players however it's not a tough choice between running duo (or trio based on the new build) in say Rragar's versus wasting a hour getting builds, bathroom and drinks straight in a staging outpost with a PuG.

DRGN · Mar 04, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

This is not targeted at you specifically I'm just pointing out the disconnect here. Tramp neglected to mention that you won't find those so-called balanced groups either way. If they completely removed farming from the game tomorrow the flurry of activity in popular staging outposts would vanish. The people that remain would choose h/h, 2+6 or some other mix with friends, alliance or guild. The hardcore PuG crowd is going to complain no matter what happens because of the quality of people they are left with. It takes initiative to make a good PuG. That means reworking builds from the ground up and finding people receptive to hearing that Defy tanking sucks. Let's be clear, I don't dungeon run I may have done CoF twice ever but that's it. Looking at the available options to players however it's not a tough choice between running duo (or trio based on the new build) in say Rragar's versus wasting a hour getting builds, bathroom and drinks straight in a staging outpost with a PuG.

Well put. There's always a mentality about what builds need to be run, and there's always a segment of the base that thinks they are being left out and neglected. Remember back in the day when everyone fapped to monk + tank + echo nukers? That was considered "balanced", and there were endless complaints about how that system left people out, forced people into certain roles/classes, etc. Or 5-man Oro/FA where you might be lucky if you were an Ele to get a group, but otherwise it was gear tank + 2 monks + 2 necros. Now the pendulum had swung the other direction where you're being forced into playing Shadow Form and all that crap if you want to get a PUG group.

Holy shit, PUGs force you into a certain build. Why are you all acting as if that's NEW? When have PUGs in this game every done ANYTHING besides shoehorn people into certain roles or be a smattering of random players who wipe to the first mob of Aaxtes? I don't particularly like it, but that's how it's been for a long time now, before Shadow Form and assassins were even in the game. It'd be nice if it were different, but it's been that way as long as I can remember. I would really like to know what version of GW you guys have been playing where PUGs weren't degenerate/cookie cutter...

Also, as an aside: From the people who are on Test Krewe that I talked to, they felt Anet utterly ignored them, so blaming them probably isn't all that fair. That's all I can say about that.

Martin Alvito · Mar 04, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.

Amen. I've been saying that for years. ANet needs two things that haven't always been present in the past to make such a policy work:

- A good working definition of imba
- Willingness to admit mistakes swiftly

If those two things happen, PvE can be maintained.

Orry · Mar 04, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Well put. There's always a mentality about what builds need to be run, and there's always a segment of the base that thinks they are being left out and neglected. Remember back in the day when everyone fapped to monk + tank + echo nukers? That was considered "balanced", and there were endless complaints about how that system left people out, forced people into certain roles/classes, etc. Or 5-man Oro/FA where you might be lucky if you were an Ele to get a group, but otherwise it was gear tank + 2 monks + 2 necros. Now the pendulum had swung the other direction where you're being forced into playing Shadow Form and all that crap if you want to get a PUG group.

Holy shit, PUGs force you into a certain build. Why are you all acting as if that's NEW? When have PUGs in this game every done ANYTHING besides shoehorn people into certain roles or be a smattering of random players who wipe to the first mob of Aaxtes? I don't particularly like it, but that's how it's been for a long time now, before Shadow Form and assassins were even in the game. It'd be nice if it were different, but it's been that way as long as I can remember. I would really like to know what version of GW you guys have been playing where PUGs weren't degenerate/cookie cutter...

Also, as an aside: From the people who are on Test Krewe that I talked to, they felt Anet utterly ignored them, so blaming them probably isn't all that fair. That's all I can say about that.

Who's saying imbalance is new? Most people are merely stating that Anet should be attempting to fix imbalances as they come, as opposed to letting them sit for years to the point where people leave and there is never any balance.

Mireles · Mar 04, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

So, it's not just about people blindly hating a certain play style if that play style has a visible negative effect on a player's ability to find or form a group.

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo. If were all just going exploit the game to skip content and call it fun, we should just bring ursan back so everyone can participate.

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

The idea that we should make it better to play solo and a certain set of builds is ridiculous... What farming a solo turns things into is who can collect the most and how fast. Causing solo competitiveness instead of cooperative teamwork.

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

UnChosen · Mar 04, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo. If were all just going exploit the game to skip content and call it fun, we should just bring ursan back so everyone can participate.

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

The idea that we should make it better to play solo and a certain set of builds is ridiculous... What farming a solo turns things into is who can collect the most and how fast. Causing solo competitiveness instead of cooperative teamwork.

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

Heroes and Henchmen, "OMG Pug sucks I'll play with my little group of guildies forever!", Powertraders.

Deakon · Mar 04, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Yes last time a checked this was a MMORPG... the 2nd M for multiplayer implies non-solo.

I thought multi-player meant that there's more than one player. H/H allows you to play solo pretty much anywhere in GW with the exception of obvious areas like DoA etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Personally, I like the challenge of impossible odds or what the normal person feels is impossible and require critical thinking(problem with this is most ppl don't like to think), not repetition labor for currency...That is called a Job... Because if there was no such challenges, we should just give everyone everything they want and make everything valueless.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that. The main difference between, say you and I, is that my career demands critical thinking over mindless repetition. When I "play a game", I prefer to take a break from thinking and just enjoy mindlessly destroying imaginary bad guys. But I don't feel the need to force others to my style of play.

Everyone that was for the recent "update" will tell you that it has nothing to do with the rewards. They support nerfing imba builds and OP skills because it goes against the true intent of team-play. "The way it was intended to be played." They reiterate the fact that it's not wealth or e-peen envy. They want the option to play strictly for the enjoyment of putting together a balanced team and working together to accomplish goals.

So... here's the perfect solution to the speed clears, over-farming and dungeon runs. Remove the rewards. Remove all ecto, obby shards, gemstones, etc. etc. The SC'ers would no longer have a reason to exist. The farmers wouldn't have anything of worth to farm non-stop. The dungeon runners wouldn't have anyone needing the run more than once so there'd be no reason for them to bother anymore.

That would leave all the purists to have the freedom they want... they can put together teams and do anything they want because nobody will be providing lazier options. Since they're not interested in the "rewards" other than the satisfaction of the original "intent" of team-spirit, they would be happy. Well... unless they were not being truthful about the wealth and e-peen envy.

DRGN · Mar 04, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Who's saying imbalance is new? Most people are merely stating that Anet should be attempting to fix imbalances as they come, as opposed to letting them sit for years to the point where people leave and there is never any balance.

No one is actually saying it. They're just acting like it, such as few pages back who were like "Good luck getting a group if you aren't SF" as though not being able to get in a PUG without being forced into a specific role is A)Something that everyone already doesn't know and B)Anything new. If that's not the reason they can't run a "balanced" group(that they can't get PUGs to do it), then I would like to know what it is. It's not like there's a port like in old Tombs that says "Only players with Shadow Form can enter this area".

I agree wholeheartedly that the problem comes when stuff is left unfixed for a long time.The difference is that before, something new always came along to replace the old builds so that they didn't stagnate for an extremely prolonged period. GW being on life support means this pattern has hit a dead end. I also have to wonder what Anet wanted people to do if 600/smite, SF, and Obby Flesh all really did become completely useless. Were we to go back to pulling one mob at a time in a gigantic area like DoA and tediously killing them individually? Is that what people who champion balance consider fun? If it is, that's fine, but say so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

If you want solo back, you need to go back to console games or find something more socially filling.

And this is why I don't understand it when people say "No one is telling you how you should play the game" when you have people like this saying to gtfo and play another game if you don't want to play like they do. Am I really supposed to interpret that any other way? That entire post was about what you like and how you think the game should be played. You wanna play it that way? That's up to you. This idea that we have no right to object and need to just sit back and quietly take any change that comes our way is really getting old.

Also, if any mod is paying attention, would it be acceptable to make a new thread on the power trading vs farming issue I brought up on the previous page? It's a question I have wanted answered for quite a long time now, but it got buried and it was probably too far off-topic as it was, and the answers sparked another tangent and brought up some bizarro idea about monitoring forums for sales.

esthetic · Mar 04, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

So... here's the perfect solution to the speed clears, over-farming and dungeon runs. Remove the rewards. Remove all ecto, obby shards, gemstones, etc. etc. The SC'ers would no longer have a reason to exist. The farmers wouldn't have anything of worth to farm non-stop. The dungeon runners wouldn't have anyone needing the run more than once so there'd be no reason for them to bother anymore.

That would leave all the purists to have the freedom they want... they can put together teams and do anything they want because nobody will be providing lazier options. Since they're not interested in the "rewards" other than the satisfaction of the original "intent" of team-spirit, they would be happy. Well... unless they were not being truthful about the wealth and e-peen envy.

/signed well actually QFT

I have to think ANet is trying to maximize its value by trying to keep people happy and spending money. I have to think that the actions they have taken since the release of NF follow along these lines. Unfortunately, by not fixing XTH and spending time and other resources on nerfing, in the name of getting rid of imba, they have not succeeded and actually caused decrease in the value of GW, leaving players frustrated to the point of quitting. (I would love to see ANet 2009 and 2010 monthly income/expense stmts. to match up ANets actions and immediate impact on profit/loss) I believe ANet relied on the suggestions of self interested players with loud voices, not representative of the player base. ANet should go to a more open forum such as in game suggestions and voting on proposed changes before they make any more changes.

Now the cynical side of me thinks that ANet may not be listening to the players but maybe just trying to keep costs down, get rid of some people(inside and out), reduce cost of maintenance, with the least impact to the value of the company. And these objectives are the driving force of their actions. In which case I would say they cut too much and have hurt the franchise more than they expected.

Deakon · Mar 04, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by esthetic

/signed

Now the cynical side of me thinks that ANet may not be listening to the players but maybe just trying to keep costs down, get rid of some people(inside and out), reduce cost of maintenance, with the least impact to the value of the company. And these objectives are the driving force of their actions. In which case I would say they cut too much and have hurt the franchise more than they expected.

THAT is exactly what I think too! It's not cynical, it's logical. It makes perfect sense from a business perspective.

I wish Anet would make an official announcement stating that "this is it", no more new content, no more changes to PvE, no more new ANYTHING... "We'll devote what few resources we have left to maintaining balance in PvP." That would be logical AND acceptable. It would probably spark my interest to become more involved in high end PvP like HA, GvG etc. If it were truly (as close as possible anyways) balanced. I've gotten to the point where I can note on my map when quarry flags change colors and tell you which turtle or juggie is about to glitch in JQ.

BTW... it's now quicker to speed clear DT with a solo build than with a team of 8 monks but I guess that's not really saying much anymore. Any guesses as to the profession of the solo build? lol Ass... ass... IN!

Mireles · Mar 04, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

The main difference between, say you and I, is that my career demands critical thinking over mindless repetition. When I "play a game", I prefer to take a break from thinking and just enjoy mindlessly destroying imaginary bad guys. But I don't feel the need to force others to my style of play.

Notice i said job not career, I am an accountant myself.... I'm just a stickler for math problems

I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, i just think that this kinda game will have to pick between solo, or the playability of multilayer that a MMORPG should provide. Otherwise one type of play will always dominate the other.

Although this is not the only causeof decreased multilayer playability. There is also the existence of builds so far superior to other builds that there are no reasons for other skills even professions to exist. Also the introduction of heroes really lowered the incentive for people to team up and work with one another.

Mireles · Mar 04, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Furthermore,

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 04, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I am not trying to force anyone to do anything, i just think that this kinda game will have to pick between solo, or the playability of multilayer that a MMORPG should provide. Otherwise one type of play will always dominate the other.

No offence to you, good sir, Neverwinter Nights says you are wrong. Solo, Party, whatever. It's all good, and there's still no free rides.

Mireles · Mar 04, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

No offence to you, good sir, Neverwinter Nights says you are wrong. Solo, Party, whatever. It's all good, and there's still no free rides.

I guess I should of said this game, I'm sure it can be done in other games, But in this game... without a major overhaul of the setup... I don't think it could be done effectively.... in my opinion of course.

And by effectively i mean prophecies era, when you said LFG in a mission u had 3-4 group offers no questions asked. Am I the only one missing that?

I think Ursan was the lesser of the evils.... yeah its mindless killing of animated monsters in the same fashion in every area of the game, but everyone got to participate... lol

byteme! · Mar 04, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders
because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

I hope you don't do sales for a living because you're destined for epic failure. If I were you I wouldn't invest in stocks either.